Christmas Ban, Firms Scared Of Tinsel Options

[rederic]

Christmas is not a "fairy tale" to Christians.

If you don't like it, move to a Muslim country.

Why should an atheist move to a Muslim country?

I wasn't replying to an atheist; I was replying to a Muslim hiding behind the cover of atheism.

The news story does not suggest that British firms are banning Christmas in the workplace for fear of offending atheists but "because they might offend Muslims."

why would a Muslim be offended just because tehy dont believe that a man wasnt born of a virgin birth, they hold him in high regard nonetheless

however you can ask an agnostic or atheist and they may have a few issues with people people believing in fairytales and then encouraging a huge materialistic ritual of self gratification and excess where a large number of people end up feeling suicidal and depressed

You appeared to be replying to this post, as it had the 'fairytale' comment.

[zoroaster]

I was replying to that post. That poster is not an atheist but a Muslim hiding behind the cover of atheism.

As noted in the news story, offending Muslims is the reason British firms are banning Christmas in the workplace.

Many atheists from Christian backgrounds (and even some from Jewish backgrounds) celebrate Christmas, not as a religious holiday but as a family holiday. In this forum, easylife, FBG and Harlequin have posted that they are atheists who celebrate Christmas nonetheless.

[rederic]

I was replying to that post. That poster is not an atheist but a Muslim hiding behind the cover of atheism.

As noted in the news story, offending Muslims is the reason British firms are banning Christmas in the workplace.

Many atheists from Christian backgrounds (and even some from Jewish backgrounds) celebrate Christmas, not as a religious holiday but as a family holiday. In this forum, easylife, FBG and Harlequin have posted that they are atheists who celebrate Christmas nonetheless.

If I'm reading Green Meadows post correctly, he is saying that although Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, they still regard him highly. Where as atheists believe the same thing, but don't regard him highly. This seems like a perfectly reasonable statement from the poster & didn't deserve your criticism. Perhaps it's just your hatred of the Muslim religion & anyone to do with it surfacing again.
As for us atheists celebrating Christmas, all we are celebrating is the fact that it's a public holiday. You as a christian don't celebrate Muslim religious festivals, so why should a Muslim or any other religion celebrate yours.

[easylife]

I wouldn't call myself an atheist but an agnostic. I'd hate to get to judgement day and find out i had been well off the mark.

As for green meadows, Is it just me or do they like to stir the pot, Since i read there very first post on here I have noticed that in every thread they post in, they seem to enjoy courting controversy and getting people to argue, then standing back to watch, might be just me but its the impression I get.

As for celibrating muslim holidays, why the hell would anyone who is not muslim want to do that. This country isn't a muslim country yet, and I personaly have no interest what so every in celibrating any of there religious holidays.

At the end of the day, they are in a christian country, so they don't have a lot of choice but to take christmas off, when the companies they work for shut down for the holidays, so if they are getting paid holidays, due to our religious system, then the least the can do is not complain when we put up a bit of tinsel.

[zoroaster]

I was replying to that post. That poster is not an atheist but a Muslim hiding behind the cover of atheism.

As noted in the news story, offending Muslims is the reason British firms are banning Christmas in the workplace.

Many atheists from Christian backgrounds (and even some from Jewish backgrounds) celebrate Christmas, not as a religious holiday but as a family holiday. In this forum, easylife, FBG and Harlequin have posted that they are atheists who celebrate Christmas nonetheless.

If I'm reading Green Meadows post correctly, he is saying that although Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, they still regard him highly. Where as atheists believe the same thing, but don't regard him highly. This seems like a perfectly reasonable statement from the poster & didn't deserve your criticism. Perhaps it's just your hatred of the Muslim religion & anyone to do with it surfacing again.
As for us atheists celebrating Christmas, all we are celebrating is the fact that it's a public holiday. You as a christian don't celebrate Muslim religious festivals, so why should a Muslim or any other religion celebrate yours.

I would have taken your reply seriously if you hadn't added a gratuitous lie about my "hatred of the Muslim religion & anyone to do with it surfacing again." I've never used the word "hate" or "hatred" to describe my feelings about Islam or Muslims. I have described Islam in terms you may consider insulting because Islam's holiest book, the Koran, is expressly blasphemous to Christianity. I've described Muhammad in terms you may consider insulting based on the Koran and historical facts. But I've never used the word "hate" or any form thereof to describe my feelings about Islam or Muslims. Why did you lie?

My family and I were born and lived as part of the Christian minority in Turkey, the most secular Muslim country and purportedly the most tolerant to Christianity. The Christians in Turkey wouldn't dare publicly object to the celebration of Muslim holidays -- if they valued their lives. The Turks were so "tolerant" of Christmas that we had to hide our Christmas tree so it could not be seen from the street. My parents were not paranoid; they acted based on the real experiences of fellow Christians.

So spare me your lies and pontifications . . .

[Ozer]

Islam's holy book, the Koran, expressly rejects that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, expressly rejects Jesus Christ's virgin birth, and expressly rejects Jesus Christ's resurrection from death.

In light of the foregoing, it makes perfect sense that Muslims would be offended by Christmas, which celebrates the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was resurrected from death.

The issue is whether anyone in the UK should stop celebrating Christmas because it offends Muslims.

So? A lot of people would give more credit to Quran if it did that. Please quote the passages in Quran that with all the rejections or withdraw your statement. Do not attempt to deviate by quoting what some extremist cleric or Sheria law interpretation by someone else - stick to contents of Quran, since that is what your claim has been on many occasione=s since yesterday.

As for Jesus, I have few question for you and everyone else on this forum:

In this day and age, how many of you do really believe that "Virgin Mary" was artificially insemnated by GOD - described by all religions, as having no body, shape or form - analagous to nothingness, who then gave birth to a prophet. As people who look for proof and evidence of things allthe time - what proof does anyone have to support this idiotic theory (my personal opinion)? Why am I not struck by lightning for writing these? The same applias to Moses coming down the mountain carrying a ton of slates, or Mohammed chatting to God in a cave!

Having said all that, I also believe having true faith is a great source of strength to many people and I respect them a lot for having it - although my personal feelings differ. Everytime I am in Europe during Christmas I join in and enjoy the fun, just like I do with the muslim holidays in Cyprus - and I think its great. It makes people happy and there is a general atmosphere of good will during these religious celebrations. And, as I said in a different thread few weeks ago, the children are the happiest during these religious festivities - and if for nothing else, that must be worth a lot!

Every muslim family, belonging to Turkish Cypriot community in UK (and there are quite a few of them) that I know of, who do set up a Christmas tree in their sitting room and exchange presents, just like the Christians do! Most of them do cook the traditional turkey and have members of family join in.

In all the years I have come and gone, / lived in the UK, I had never once heard of any muslim Cypriot or Asian complain / offended by Christmas celebrations. This is nothing more than political correctness gone mad, when some councils or public figures run out of ideas and come up with crap like "it would offend muslims to...". More often than not, senior muslim clerics are quoted soon after, saying no one is really offended and the claims are false!

So, to keep up healthy and sensible discussions let us try and stop quoting these stupid media puns please!

[zoroaster]

Thought you would never ask.

Here you go:

I. DENIAL THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD

The Koran repeatedly condemns the deity of Christ as blasphemy and idolatry (2:116; 3:58; 4:171ff.; 5:17,73,116; 9:30-31; 10:68; 18:3ff.; 19:26ff.; 21:26; 23:90; 25:2; 39:4; 72:3ff.; 112:1-4).

Jesus is presented as being a mere man. (3:59; 4:171ff.; 5:75).

Jesus is continuously described as "the son of Mary," thus denying that Jesus was the "son of God" as the "misled" Christians claimed (4:171ff.).

Surah 4 (in three translations)

Verse 171
YUSUFALI: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

Surah 5

Verse 72
YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

PICKTHAL: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

SHAKIR: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

Verse 73
YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

PICKTHAL: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

SHAKIR: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

Verse 75
YUSUFALI: Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

PICKTHAL: The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

SHAKIR: The Messiah, son of Marium is but a messenger; messengers before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.

Surah 19

Verse 34
YUSUFALI: Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

PICKTHAL: Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.

SHAKIR: Such is Isa, son of Marium; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute.

Verse 35
YUSUFALI: It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

PICKTHAL: It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.

SHAKIR: It beseems not Allah that He should take to Himself a ! son, glory to be Him; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is.

II. DENIAL OF JESUS' CRUCIFIXION AND THUS HIS RESURRECTION

Surah 4

Verse 156
YUSUFALI: That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

PICKTHAL: And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;

SHAKIR: And for their unbelief and for their having uttered against Marium a grievous calumny.

Verse 157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Verse 158
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

PICKTHAL: But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

SHAKIR: Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Any questions?

[Green Meadows]

Easylife, lol I came on this site because Id comeacross it a few years ago..thought it was interesting added it to my favourites and then forgot about it
I came back to it on the advise of a friend, its an interesting place.. I initially thought Id post in the cookery section, books and philosophy but I havent really had the time to to make fully coherent contributions

What I have had done in the few minutes to Im here is to read some of the other forums..my aim is not to start arguments..just to seek clarification if these questions were asked of different people Im sure it wouldnt lead to animosity

asking what a fundo is is normal..I wasnt clear and it has to be said that it was banded about quite a bit..also nobody replied for a few days I asummed that like me people didnt exactly know

one thing Ive pick up on this site is that its pretty hard work to let people know that you are not a nutter, i think after a few tries I decided not to bother...

I have been branded a muslim in hiding by Zoroaster, an atheist/agnostic type person by another and a stirrer by you

why do I stay?

I stay because there i like to read different points of view..

sorry to go on...you'll have to forgive me because im old
lol

ive forgotton the reason i was saying all this

anyway take care:)

[Green Meadows]

Truthteller..I like your style

Zoroaster

It amuses me that you assume things about people...anyway I refuse to give anything away about me you may think what you like

but one think Im quite certain on is this

I do not believe for one second that a teenager was walking around a shabby village in the middle east, someone from a culture where women were expected to live modestly suddenly by some extra ordinary quirk became pregnant

I reckon that she was a normal hormonal teenager who just didnt listen to her ma

and accidents happen...they didnt have the morning after pill in those days

anyway...either he ran off and left her and good old Joseph decided to take on the responsibility or it was good old Joseph himself

and as for Christmas...Im making my own cards... and crackers too
shop bought crackers are expensive and contain tat

Happy Crimbo to you:D

[rederic]

I was replying to that post. That poster is not an atheist but a Muslim hiding behind the cover of atheism.

As noted in the news story, offending Muslims is the reason British firms are banning Christmas in the workplace.

Many atheists from Christian backgrounds (and even some from Jewish backgrounds) celebrate Christmas, not as a religious holiday but as a family holiday. In this forum, easylife, FBG and Harlequin have posted that they are atheists who celebrate Christmas nonetheless.

If I'm reading Green Meadows post correctly, he is saying that although Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, they still regard him highly. Where as atheists believe the same thing, but don't regard him highly. This seems like a perfectly reasonable statement from the poster & didn't deserve your criticism. Perhaps it's just your hatred of the Muslim religion & anyone to do with it surfacing again.
As for us atheists celebrating Christmas, all we are celebrating is the fact that it's a public holiday. You as a christian don't celebrate Muslim religious festivals, so why should a Muslim or any other religion celebrate yours.

I would have taken your reply seriously if you hadn't added a gratuitous lie about my "hatred of the Muslim religion & anyone to do with it surfacing again." I've never used the word "hate" or "hatred" to describe my feelings about Islam or Muslims. I have described Islam in terms you may consider insulting because Islam's holiest book, the Koran, is expressly blasphemous to Christianity. I've described Muhammad in terms you may consider insulting based on the Koran and historical facts. But I've never used the word "hate" or any form thereof to describe my feelings about Islam or Muslims. Why did you lie?

My family and I were born and lived as part of the Christian minority in Turkey, the most secular Muslim country and purportedly the most tolerant to Christianity. The Christians in Turkey wouldn't dare publicly object to the celebration of Muslim holidays -- if they valued their lives. The Turks were so "tolerant" of Christmas that we had to hide our Christmas tree so it could not be seen from the street. My parents were not paranoid; they acted based on the real experiences of fellow Christians.

So spare me your lies and pontifications . . .

I didn't lie. Where in my post did I say that you have used the word "hate" in relation to Muslims. I used the word "hatred" because that's the impression that your constant diatribe about anything to do with the Muslim religion gives. Using emotive words such as "evil" to describe Islam doesn't exactly lend your opinion as regards Islam in a positive light. Please stop twisting my words to suit your own purposes.
I've yet to hear of any Muslim complaining about Christian festivals in this country, the problem seems to be with individuals in places of authority being over sensitive.

[zoroaster]

Truthteller..I like your style

Zoroaster

It amuses me that you assume things about people...anyway I refuse to give anything away about me you may think what you like

but one think Im quite certain on is this

I do not believe for one second that a teenager was walking around a shabby village in the middle east, someone from a culture where women were expected to live modestly suddenly by some extra ordinary quirk became pregnant

I reckon that she was a normal hormonal teenager who just didnt listen to her ma

and accidents happen...they didnt have the morning after pill in those days

anyway...either he ran off and left her and good old Joseph decided to take on the responsibility or it was good old Joseph himself

and as for Christmas...Im making my own cards... and crackers too
shop bought crackers are expensive and contain tat

Happy Crimbo to you:D

If you "refuse to give anything away," perhaps you should consider asking fewer personal questions.

You are entitled to your beliefs, and I am entitled to mine.

I would never ask you or anyone else to accept Christianity, and I will not answer questions or otherwise justify my faith.

[zoroaster]

I was replying to that post. That poster is not an atheist but a Muslim hiding behind the cover of atheism.

As noted in the news story, offending Muslims is the reason British firms are banning Christmas in the workplace.

Many atheists from Christian backgrounds (and even some from Jewish backgrounds) celebrate Christmas, not as a religious holiday but as a family holiday. In this forum, easylife, FBG and Harlequin have posted that they are atheists who celebrate Christmas nonetheless.

If I'm reading Green Meadows post correctly, he is saying that although Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, they still regard him highly. Where as atheists believe the same thing, but don't regard him highly. This seems like a perfectly reasonable statement from the poster & didn't deserve your criticism. Perhaps it's just your hatred of the Muslim religion & anyone to do with it surfacing again.
As for us atheists celebrating Christmas, all we are celebrating is the fact that it's a public holiday. You as a christian don't celebrate Muslim religious festivals, so why should a Muslim or any other religion celebrate yours.

I would have taken your reply seriously if you hadn't added a gratuitous lie about my "hatred of the Muslim religion & anyone to do with it surfacing again." I've never used the word "hate" or "hatred" to describe my feelings about Islam or Muslims. I have described Islam in terms you may consider insulting because Islam's holiest book, the Koran, is expressly blasphemous to Christianity. I've described Muhammad in terms you may consider insulting based on the Koran and historical facts. But I've never used the word "hate" or any form thereof to describe my feelings about Islam or Muslims. Why did you lie?

My family and I were born and lived as part of the Christian minority in Turkey, the most secular Muslim country and purportedly the most tolerant to Christianity. The Christians in Turkey wouldn't dare publicly object to the celebration of Muslim holidays -- if they valued their lives. The Turks were so "tolerant" of Christmas that we had to hide our Christmas tree so it could not be seen from the street. My parents were not paranoid; they acted based on the real experiences of fellow Christians.

So spare me your lies and pontifications . . .

I didn't lie. Where in my post did I say that you have used the word "hate" in relation to Muslims. I used the word "hatred" because that's the impression that your constant diatribe about anything to do with the Muslim religion gives. Using emotive words such as "evil" to describe Islam doesn't exactly lend your opinion as regards Islam in a positive light. Please stop twisting my words to suit your own purposes.
I've yet to hear of any Muslim complaining about Christian festivals in this country, the problem seems to be with individuals in places of authority being over sensitive.

Following is your statement:

"Perhaps it's just your hatred of the Muslim religion & anyone to do with it surfacing again."

Just because I believe Islam is an evil religion doesn't mean I feel hatred for the religion or its adherents.

Hatred is not in my repertoire of feelings.

People who inspire hatred in others do not inspire hatred in me; rather, they inspire the total lack of any feeling.

[rederic]

I was replying to that post. That poster is not an atheist but a Muslim hiding behind the cover of atheism.

As noted in the news story, offending Muslims is the reason British firms are banning Christmas in the workplace.

Many atheists from Christian backgrounds (and even some from Jewish backgrounds) celebrate Christmas, not as a religious holiday but as a family holiday. In this forum, easylife, FBG and Harlequin have posted that they are atheists who celebrate Christmas nonetheless.

If I'm reading Green Meadows post correctly, he is saying that although Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, they still regard him highly. Where as atheists believe the same thing, but don't regard him highly. This seems like a perfectly reasonable statement from the poster & didn't deserve your criticism. Perhaps it's just your hatred of the Muslim religion & anyone to do with it surfacing again.
As for us atheists celebrating Christmas, all we are celebrating is the fact that it's a public holiday. You as a christian don't celebrate Muslim religious festivals, so why should a Muslim or any other religion celebrate yours.

I would have taken your reply seriously if you hadn't added a gratuitous lie about my "hatred of the Muslim religion & anyone to do with it surfacing again." I've never used the word "hate" or "hatred" to describe my feelings about Islam or Muslims. I have described Islam in terms you may consider insulting because Islam's holiest book, the Koran, is expressly blasphemous to Christianity. I've described Muhammad in terms you may consider insulting based on the Koran and historical facts. But I've never used the word "hate" or any form thereof to describe my feelings about Islam or Muslims. Why did you lie?

My family and I were born and lived as part of the Christian minority in Turkey, the most secular Muslim country and purportedly the most tolerant to Christianity. The Christians in Turkey wouldn't dare publicly object to the celebration of Muslim holidays -- if they valued their lives. The Turks were so "tolerant" of Christmas that we had to hide our Christmas tree so it could not be seen from the street. My parents were not paranoid; they acted based on the real experiences of fellow Christians.

So spare me your lies and pontifications . . .

I didn't lie. Where in my post did I say that you have used the word "hate" in relation to Muslims. I used the word "hatred" because that's the impression that your constant diatribe about anything to do with the Muslim religion gives. Using emotive words such as "evil" to describe Islam doesn't exactly lend your opinion as regards Islam in a positive light. Please stop twisting my words to suit your own purposes.
I've yet to hear of any Muslim complaining about Christian festivals in this country, the problem seems to be with individuals in places of authority being over sensitive.

Following is your statement:

"Perhaps it's just your hatred of the Muslim religion & anyone to do with it surfacing again."

Just because I believe Islam is an evil religion doesn't mean I feel hatred for the religion or its adherents.

Hatred is not in my repertoire of feelings.

People who inspire hatred in others do not inspire hatred in me; rather, they inspire the total lack of any feeling.

If you genuinely don't feel hatred towards Islam, then I apologise, but that is the impression that I get.

[zoroaster]

No problem.

It's not unreasonable to conclude that one hates whatever or whoever one describes as "evil" and "Satanic."

I just don't feel hate, but I've been told that when I go into "total lack of any feeling" mode on a person, to that person it feels worse than being hated.

[Green Meadows]

"total lack of feeling mode" makes them feel worse

and thats why you do it huh?

Wow..that must give you a huge buzz

Jesus would be SOOOOO proud of you

LMAO!!!!!