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Emissary of the Bee
Or more accurately, let me throw you some for and against sources, quotes and clips.
While the BNP is a long time/way/form off being a viable big player, its always nice to see what you all think while sitting atop my ivory tower sipping my tea.

Against
And believe me, there’s is mounds of sources to search; this is however lazily taken from a Facebook page, not the most reliable source but with a little searching you can find video clips of most of these quotes.

QUOTE
“The electors of Millwall did not back a post-modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan “Defend Rights for Whites’ with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, POWER IS THE PRODUCT OF FORCE AND WILL, NOT OF RATIONAL DEBATE.” - Nick Griffin

"I am only going to represent the white people. I WILL NOT REPRESENT ASIANS. I will not do anything for them. They have no right to be in my great country." - Derek Beackon

"When we get to power OUR OPPONENTS WILL BE SWEPT AWAY like flies." - John Tyndall

"Very few people in Britain are aware of the huge influence over the mass media exercised by a certain ethnic minority, namely the Jews." - Nick Griffin

“The controllers of Hollywood, almost entirely Jewish. Some 'ANTI-SEMITISM' MAY BE PROVOKED BY THE ACTIONS OF CERTAIN JEWS THEMSELVES and thereby have a RATIONAL BASIS”. - Nick Griffin

"There is no doubt that hundreds, probably thousands of Jews were shot to death in Eastern Europe, because they were rightly or wrongly seen as communists or potential partisan supporters. That was awful. But THIS NONSENSE ABOUT GAS CHAMBERS is exposed as a total lie." - Nick Griffin

"[t]his BLOODY JEW [Alex Carlile MP] whose only claim is that his grandparents died in the Holocaust." - Nick Griffin

"There's not a European country the Jews haven't been thrown out of. When it happens that many times, it's not just persecution. THERE'S NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE." - Mark Collett

"Without the White race nothing matters [other right-wing parties] believe that the answer to the race question is integration and a futile attempt to create "Black Britons", while we affirm that NON-WHITES HAVE NO PLACE HERE AT ALL AND WILL NOT REST UNTIL EVERY LAST ONE HAS LEFT OUR LAND." - Nick Griffin

"Yes, Adolf went a bit too far. His legacy is the biggest problem that the British nationalist movement has to deal with. It just creates a bad image." - Nick Griffin

"There is a STRONG, DIRECT LINK from Oswald Mosley to me." - Nick Griffin

“The TV footage of dozens of ‘gay’ demonstrators flaunting their perversions in front of the world’s journalists showed just why so many ordinary people find these CREATURES so repulsive.” - Nick Griffin

"Churchill was a fucking cunt who led us into a pointless war with other whites [the Nazis] standing up for their race." - Mark Collett

"He's a fucking traitor." - Mark Collett on the Prince of Wales

"The Royals have betrayed their people. When we're in power they'll be WIPED OUT and we'll get some Germans to rule properly." - Mark Collett

"A FRIENDLY DISEASE because blacks, drug users and gays have it." - Mark Collett on AIDS

"Hitler will live forever; and maybe I will." - Mark Collett

"The sick minds who would have us believe that Jews were gassed at Auschwitz are completely twisted." - Tony Lecomber

"Asians are rubbish, and that is what WE ARE GOING TO CLEAR FROM THE STREETS." - Derek Beackon

"Those responsible for creating this multi-racial hell hole must face trial and pay the ultimate penalty." - Nick Griffin

"AIDS Monkeys.... bum bandits.... faggots." - Mark Collett on homosexuals

"Racial laws will be enacted FORBIDDING MARRIAGE between Britons and non-Aryans: medical measures will be taken to prevent procreation on the part of all those who have hereditary defects either racial, mental or physical." - John Tyndall

"Mein Kampf is my Bible." - John Tyndall

"[t]here will be an unanswerable case when the day for the great clean up comes, to IMPLEMENT THE FINAL SOLUTION against these sub-human elements by means of the GAS CHAMBERS" - John Tyndall

"There's a difference between selling out your ideas and selling your ideas. And the British National Party isn't about selling out it's ideas, which are your ideas, but we are determined now to sell them. And that means basically to use these salable words.
As I say, 'freedom', 'security', 'identity', 'democracy', nobody can criticise them, nobody can come at you and attack you on those ideas: they are salable. Perhaps one day, once by being rather more subtle, we got ourselves into a position where we control the British broadcasting media, then perhaps one day the British people might change their minds and say, 'Yes, every last one must go'. Perhaps they will one day, but if you offer that as your soul mate to start with, you're going to get absolutely nowhere. So, INSTEAD OF TALKING ABOUT RACIAL PURITY WE TALK ABOUT IDENTITY." - Nick Griffin addressing the Ku Klux Klan

"Voluntary repatriation. Isn't that EASIER TO SELL than compulsory repatriation for all?" - Nick Griffin

"I honestly don't hate asylum seekers - THESE PEOPLE ARE COCKROACHES *and they're doing what cockroaches do because cockroaches can't help what they do, they just do it, like cats miaow and dogs bark." - Mark Collett *This is what the Hutus in Rwanda called the Tutsis of which 800,000-1 million were killed

"Well apparently didn't they get a lot of dentistry and plastic surgery."
- Rotherham BNP's Marlene Guest, referring to horrific Nazi experiments on Jews and others during World War II.

"The idea that the Black African Bishop Sentamu, the Asian Muslim MP Shahid Malik, the part-Turkish Boris Johnson and the Jewish Lord Goldsmith have anything to teach the indigenous English about St. Georges Day is absurd." - John Lee Barnes

"When these Asians go out looking for a victim, they don't go looking for Asian victims. They don't go mugging Asian grandmas, they don't go stabbing each other, they don't go trying to solicit sex off little Pritesh or little Sanjita, they go straight to the whites because they are trying to destroy us and they are the racists." - Mark Collett

“All black people will be repatriated, even if they were born here. ” - Nick Griffin

"Black culture is totally inimical to the mental and spiritual development of young white people, encouraging laziness, lack of ambition in worthy pursuits, preoccupation with the trivial and the banal, appalling manners and absence of respect for others". - John Tyndall

"WHITE WORKING CLASS SCUM will be swept away by a future BNP government." - BNP councillor Simon Smith

"THE RICH ARE GENETICALLY SUPERIOR TO THE POOR." - Tony Lecomber

"I'm no apologist for WHITE WORKING CLASS SCUM." - BNP councillor Simon Smith

"Rest assured, all those HOMEGROWN TRATORS who have taken part in the war against our indigenous rights will one day be held to account for their crimes." - Nick Griffin

“I want to see Britain become the 99 per cent genetically white country she was just eleven years before I was born, and I want to die knowing that I have helped to set her on a course whereby her future genetic makeup will one day not even resemble that of January 1948, but that of July 1914. Nothing will ever turn me from working towards that final vision.” - Nick Griffin

"Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal... [it] is like suggesting force-feeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence." - Nick Eriksen

"Honestly now, would you prefer your kid growing up in Oldham and Burnley or 1930's Germany? It would be better for your child to grow up there." - Mark Collett

"Meanwhile, the indigenous side in the low-to-medium level civil war brewing in this country is getting its training. . .Its all going to get very messy." - Nick Griffin's blog on the BNP website

"It's clearly worth talking in terms of SIX-FIGURE SUMS to persuade families to go"- Nick Griffin, the Times, April 19, 2007

“We live in a country today which is unhealthily dominated by an EXCESS OF SENTIMENTALITY TOWARDS THE WEAK AND UNPRODUCTIVE. No good will come of it.” -Jeffrey Marshall (senior organiser for the BNP’s London European election campaign), 2009 after the death of Ivan Cameron.

“There is not a great deal of point in keeping these people alive after all.” Jeffrey Marshall again referring to Ivan Cameron.

"The capitalist free traders, the Marxists and organised Jewry have declared war on the white man, not just in Britain but in every nation on the planet". - Nick Griffin

"We don't think the most overcrowded country in Europe, can realistically say, 'Look, you can all come and all your relatives'. When the Gurkhas signed up - frankly as mercenaries - they expected a pension which would allow them to live well in their own country." - Nick Griffin, 12 May 2009

Nick Griffin addressing a KKK meeting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OSzAtxnAJU

Nick Griffin denying the Holocaust on the Cook Report
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X8QQwU00Jk...feature=related

Nick Griffin denying he denied the Holocaust on the Cook Report
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-G2x9lotx8...re=channel_page

The BNP canvassing for the EU and council elections 2009.
http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=...cxm0&ref=mf

The BNP's organiser admits that membership is limited to white Europeans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuyLVayDOHo...player_embedded


For
Uhum.
Ok I don’t want to really seem one sided but this is a little lacking without simply posting the nauseously patriotic videos the party put out, so if someone else would gather sources, it would be much appreciated.

One thing I will say is can we keep it all rather civil chaps.
Jason Chapman
The BMP are lapping up the limelight at the moment, but they're also living in a dreamworld.

Just say, and this is a huge if, Mr Griffin did make it to Number 10, does he honestly think that Europe, and the rest of the world namely America will just stand by while our government systematically persecutes the ethnic minorities in this country. nono.gif we'll have US and coalition troops marching up Whitehall before you know it.

Its like I said in the Euro election post the BNP have been voted for purely out of protest, I think when it comes to a general Election it'll look a lot different. The powers that be aren't stupid there's no way they'll just stand by and let the BNP win a general Election.

QUOTE
One thing I will say is can we keep it all rather civil chaps.


You don't have to worry about that Bee, TT has been banned, BUKF is more like a Country Club these days.
charlesr
Ime pretty sure that the BNP will never be anything other than a stick with which to beat the non listening labour government, while Labour did not create the BNP, they have certainly made it into what it is to-day, with their unpopular policies. I think its fair to say that the main three parties, but Labour mainly, have driven British people to vote BNP, in fact some people actually think that the BNP is a government creation. Its exactly as Jason said, its just protest vote option

On TV news the other evening, they were interviewing people in a town not too far away from me, called Barnsley, which is a BNP strong hold, a town where i know a heck of a lot of people. They were asking who they had voted for, all but one said the BNP, and then they asked them why? The answers were, all immigration based, too many in the country, giving them jobs instead of British people, and giving them priority in housing etc, if i remember correctly, one said that her childs school was overcrowded to the point were she thought it was adversely affecting her childs education.

These issues, at least for the people interviewed were concerned, needed to be addressed before they would consider voting Labour again. Another point against Labour in that area as ive been told by friends of mine, is Asian men grooming Schoolgirls as young as 10 years old for sex, and the police refusing to act on the complaints.

The Granddaughter of a 12 year old girl, who lives in that area was raped repeatedly by young and old Asian men. The last time she got raped was when a teen aged Asian lad picked her up and drove he to a house were an older Asian man, who had his face masked raped her.

The police refused to act on the complaint, they never took a DNA a sample from the child Labour councillors also refused to act on the information as did the MP, so the Grandfather turned to the BNP who drove straight down to the police station where the BNP councillor demanded action, or she would organize a public protest as they have done in other areas. The police then acted reluctantly but never arrested any one, nor have they prosecuted anyone. Six weeks after the rape the girl was found to be pregnant, but shortly later the girl lost it, a blessing in disguise i think. The childs Grandfather asked the police to take the foetus and take a DNA sample so that they would be able to catch the rapist, moths later, the police have still not taken a DNA sample, but are still holding the foetus, the BNP have offered to pay for the DNA sample to be taken privately and have submitted a request to the police for the foetus and are still awaiting a reply.

The Grandfather was interviewed by BMP TV (as they call themselves) and that interview can been seen on their web site. With this kind of racism i would even consider voting for them myself, although i have not done so far, their vile racism is no different from that of the Labour governments, and that has prevented me from actually supporting them. I am pleased to say i voted UKIP, and boy, did they do well. biggrin.gif

But with stories like this, I feel any parent would at least think about voting for the BNP.
rederic
QUOTE(charlesr @ Jun 9 2009, 01:55 PM) *

Ime pretty sure that the BNP will never be anything other than a stick with which to beat the non listening labour government, while Labour did not create the BNP, they have certainly made it into what it is to-day, with their unpopular policies. I think its fair to say that the main three parties, but Labour mainly, have driven British people to vote BNP, in fact some people actually think that the BNP is a government creation. Its exactly as Jason said, its just protest vote option

On TV news the other evening, they were interviewing people in a town not too far away from me, called Barnsley, which is a BNP strong hold, a town where i know a heck of a lot of people. They were asking who they had voted for, all but one said the BNP, and then they asked them why? The answers were, all immigration based, too many in the country, giving them jobs instead of British people, and giving them priority in housing etc, if i remember correctly, one said that her childs school was overcrowded to the point were she thought it was adversely affecting her childs education.

These issues, at least for the people interviewed were concerned, needed to be addressed before they would consider voting Labour again. Another point against Labour in that area as ive been told by friends of mine, is Asian men grooming Schoolgirls as young as 10 years old for sex, and the police refusing to act on the complaints.

The Granddaughter of a 12 year old girl, who lives in that area was raped repeatedly by young and old Asian men. The last time she got raped was when a teen aged Asian lad picked her up and drove he to a house were an older Asian man, who had his face masked raped her.

The police refused to act on the complaint, they never took a DNA a sample from the child Labour councillors also refused to act on the information as did the MP, so the Grandfather turned to the BNP who drove straight down to the police station where the BNP councillor demanded action, or she would organize a public protest as they have done in other areas. The police then acted reluctantly but never arrested any one, nor have they prosecuted anyone. Six weeks after the rape the girl was found to be pregnant, but shortly later the girl lost it, a blessing in disguise i think. The childs Grandfather asked the police to take the foetus and take a DNA sample so that they would be able to catch the rapist, moths later, the police have still not taken a DNA sample, but are still holding the foetus, the BNP have offered to pay for the DNA sample to be taken privately and have submitted a request to the police for the foetus and are still awaiting a reply.

The Grandfather was interviewed by BMP TV (as they call themselves) and that interview can been seen on their web site. With this kind of racism i would even consider voting for them myself, although i have not done so far, their vile racism is no different from that of the Labour governments, and that has prevented me from actually supporting them. I am pleased to say i voted UKIP, and boy, did they do well. biggrin.gif

But with stories like this, I feel any parent would at least think about voting for the BNP.


How many of the quotes that EOTB posted would you disagree with TT?.....sorry I mean Charles.
charlesr
QUOTE(rederic @ Jun 9 2009, 05:25 PM) *

QUOTE(charlesr @ Jun 9 2009, 01:55 PM) *

Ime pretty sure that the BNP will never be anything other than a stick with which to beat the non listening labour government, while Labour did not create the BNP, they have certainly made it into what it is to-day, with their unpopular policies. I think its fair to say that the main three parties, but Labour mainly, have driven British people to vote BNP, in fact some people actually think that the BNP is a government creation. Its exactly as Jason said, its just protest vote option

On TV news the other evening, they were interviewing people in a town not too far away from me, called Barnsley, which is a BNP strong hold, a town where i know a heck of a lot of people. They were asking who they had voted for, all but one said the BNP, and then they asked them why? The answers were, all immigration based, too many in the country, giving them jobs instead of British people, and giving them priority in housing etc, if i remember correctly, one said that her childs school was overcrowded to the point were she thought it was adversely affecting her childs education.

These issues, at least for the people interviewed were concerned, needed to be addressed before they would consider voting Labour again. Another point against Labour in that area as ive been told by friends of mine, is Asian men grooming Schoolgirls as young as 10 years old for sex, and the police refusing to act on the complaints.

The Granddaughter of a 12 year old girl, who lives in that area was raped repeatedly by young and old Asian men. The last time she got raped was when a teen aged Asian lad picked her up and drove he to a house were an older Asian man, who had his face masked raped her.

The police refused to act on the complaint, they never took a DNA a sample from the child Labour councillors also refused to act on the information as did the MP, so the Grandfather turned to the BNP who drove straight down to the police station where the BNP councillor demanded action, or she would organize a public protest as they have done in other areas. The police then acted reluctantly but never arrested any one, nor have they prosecuted anyone. Six weeks after the rape the girl was found to be pregnant, but shortly later the girl lost it, a blessing in disguise i think. The childs Grandfather asked the police to take the foetus and take a DNA sample so that they would be able to catch the rapist, moths later, the police have still not taken a DNA sample, but are still holding the foetus, the BNP have offered to pay for the DNA sample to be taken privately and have submitted a request to the police for the foetus and are still awaiting a reply.

The Grandfather was interviewed by BMP TV (as they call themselves) and that interview can been seen on their web site. With this kind of racism i would even consider voting for them myself, although i have not done so far, their vile racism is no different from that of the Labour governments, and that has prevented me from actually supporting them. I am pleased to say i voted UKIP, and boy, did they do well. biggrin.gif

But with stories like this, I feel any parent would at least think about voting for the BNP.


How many of the quotes that EOTB posted would you disagree with TT?.....sorry I mean Charles.




Are you accusing me of impersonating some one else? Thats not a very nice thing to do to someone you dont know. I can tell that i have never found the need to impersonate any one in my life, and i dont need to now, i am more than happy with who i am. Have i just found out why this forum is so quiet?


Would you care to apologies?




Jason Chapman
It is indeed a disturbing story about the 12 year old girl you relayed there Charlie, but what's equally disturbing is that this kind of thing goes on in many communities up and down the country, white, black Asian, European, we read about them every day. Heard a news story today about a 38 years old Nursery school worker arrested for distributing indecent images of children, this kind of story makes my stomach turn summersaults.

Getting back to the subject in hand it seems Nick Griffin and his MEP colleague have an uphill struggle on their hands. He won’t be given the chance to air his views in public, not if the anti fascist movement have anything to do with it. As you can see from these clips, Griffin has got more chance climbing Mt Everest naked without oxygen, than being able to survive an open air press conference.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8091666.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8091785.stm


Griffin has slagged the media off in the past for being pawns of the government, but what he doesn’t realise is that now he’s MEP he’s going to need the media to promote whatever cause he wants to go on about, effectively he’s in a no win situation.
aboutblank1976
Indigenous rights of indigenous people? That's where the whole thing falls flat on it's face before you get anywhere near the racsim of the BNP. Great Britain came into existence as a result of immigration, that's a fact. Britishness is ideological not an actual individual sense of belonging created by what the BNP describe as the "indigenous" population.
rederic
QUOTE
The Granddaughter of a 12 year old girl, who lives in that area was raped repeatedly by young and old Asian men. The last time she got raped was when a teen aged Asian lad picked her up and drove he to a house were an older Asian man, who had his face masked raped her


This is indeed a shocking case. You wouldn't have a link to it would you? Not that I doubt your word, I'm sure you're someone who always tells the truth.
aboutblank1976
Monday night they had Andrew Brons (click here to read his resume) from the BNP and Margaret Hodge from Labour on C4 News. It was car crash debate not really because of Herr Brons' attitude more due to Margaret Hodge being unable to distinguish the difference between immigrants and students or tourists? I kid you not she genuinely lumped them altogether to try and prove that the BNP would not let any of them into the country. No wonder the BNP enjoy such a backlash vote count when the current seat of power is occupied by a party of idiots.
charlesr
QUOTE
I\'m sure you\'re someone who always tells the truth.


Then you are a wise man and a good judge of character.


Here is the case i referred to, and i hope every member of the forum will be good enough to watch it, if only out of sympathy for the abused girl. There are two more videos relating to two different offences, ile post them at a later date.

This case follows virtually the same path as the cases shown on TV not too long ago, i am sure some of you will remember that.

http://tv.bnp.org.uk/2009/06/racial-grooming-part-three/
ai21
QUOTE(rederic @ Jun 9 2009, 08:25 PM) *
How many of the quotes that EOTB posted would you disagree with TT?.....sorry I mean Charles.

TT hallmark was being rude and obnoxious,
being extremely racist, speaking vehemently for the BNP, while claiming to be against them,
trying to promote right of "indigenous" people of Britten, while being very much against indigenous rights in other places.

Charles is far from being so.

so far, Charles do like conspiracy theories and have alternative view,
but this what makes him interesting.
Emissary of the Bee
I'm sorry but I saw that it was hosted on BNP TV and switched off.
I’m not questioning Charlesr's word or the fact that things like this happen, but I’m going to regard this event as fabricated in part or entirely do to the nature its being used.

Call that harsh but its hardly and unbiased source.
charlesr
Thank you ai21, your kind words are truly appreciated, they are in stark contrast to the hostility i first encountered here.

It appears to me that every Political party has good points and bad points, I think if we all were to look closely at every party manifesto, we would find something that we disagree with in each one, if anyone has seen a manifesto, which they can agree with on every single point in every single policy, I will be greatly surprised.

So even the BNP will have some good points I would think, if we accept that the BNP video clip is factually correct, then clearly in this one instance at least, they have served a useful purpose, also once again assuming the story in the video is correct, it proves me right in what I said earlier, that the other political parties, have driven this man to the BNP, their inexcusable dereliction of duty is the catalyst to the conversion of a die-hard conservative, in to a hard line BNP supporter. Let us also remember, that the lack of police action is also politically motivated.

If we had been in this man’s position, would we all not have done the exact same thing?

Can anyone here say with any certainty, that you would not have acted any differently had it been your child involved and you had received the same lack of response from your local politicians and police?

Given certain circumstances, are we all potential future BNP supporters?

I truly believe that British politicians are to blame for the rise of the BNP, they have only themselves to blame for the political situation we are now in.

The only question left in my mind is, Is it deliberate?


QUOTE
Call that harsh but its hardly and unbiased source.



Is any source unbiased? Is every newspaper report unbiased? Is every government statement unbiased? I believe that there is no such thing as an unbiased story.

The most convincing fact about this story, is that it matches almost exactly the Channel 4 documentary of last year, was that documentary biased? Is it not to be believed?




Emissary of the Bee
Sadly at the moment I’m a little busy, but I will write a decent response to that; though it will probably go something like “though I agree that every source runs its own agenda, there are extremes and those directly given from political parties are one of them”.

In the meantime I just saw this, i haven't actually read it, but as i'm in the link posting mood!
http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=...8BNp&ref=nf
aboutblank1976
Yawn Laie_96.gif the crap about TT coming back still continues to haunt the news section.

Charlesr is not TT his posting style is remarkably different and it has to be said potently less personal and universally smarter than the aforementioned member. Now no more of the comparisons please.

P.s where's the real AI21? Stop using his log in and tell me what you have done with him?

Back to topic...........as explored here the BNP have no lasting commitiment from the British public beyond the next government being elected (which won't be BNP). The myth that the Labour government sticks to that the recession is the one ontological crisis that has resulted in their imediate decline is just rubbish. The BNP's appeal isnt based as far right as the argument that white's are naturally superior a race although naturally they draw the believers of such fascist ideology. The appeal comes from them (for a limited period of time) being able to represent the true interests (or perceivably so) of a public disaffected and disappointed with the current government. In reality they can offer no alternative salvation to any of the people who voted for them than Labour or the Tories because just as the aforementioned two are imprisoned by their own lack of insight the BNP too have tunnel vision.
charlesr
QUOTE

it seems strange. most people who don\\\'t know enough about BNP refuse to show support for them.

QUOTE

I have not supported the BNP in any way, what I have said is that they have served a purpose, and that I think is a fair and accurate comment to make.


QUOTE
your choosing to ignore ideology and declarations seems too Naive to be true.


Again I would have to disagree, it appears that you have misunderstood my point, I have actually done exactly the opposite, what I said was, judge a man not on what he says, but on what he does, that makes every parties manifesto or policies totally irrelevant, it only their actions that truly show what they are.

A good example of this is the recent statement made Gordon Brown, he said he will clean up policies and make matters more transparent, his very next action is to publish MP’S expenses heavily edited with most of the relevant subject matter deleted, Browns words mean nothing while his actions show his exact true agenda, this applies to all political parties in my view, so in effect,I have criticized all political parties and supported none.

QUOTE

when looking on Politics in different countries, you see a common thread.


policies and political strategies are shared between parallel parties in different countries. BNP and Labour being very similar to similar partie in other countries.
Same again, I take what every party says with a heavy pinch of salt, I judge them on their actions alone.
QUOTE

all over the world, distributing \\\"main campf\\\" or other obviously racist propaganda is simply not attracting the public.


I have not seen anything of that reported in the press, if you have a link, I would be grateful if you would post it, I cannot comment on something I have not read.

QUOTE

these policies however,do work:
- blaiming crime and terror on minority groups, ignoring poverty and incitement.
- suggesting immigration block and deportation
- presenting reality as \\\"rampeging crime\\\" with everyone ignoring it, except them.
- favioring popular social and green policies. claiming to be \\\"true friend\\\" to the abandoned workers
- demanding \\\"corrective discrimination\\\" to be applied to the unopressed majority (thus demanding ) discrimination), or ending the policies that try to mend long-standing discrimination.
- noticibly being anti-Jews, anti-minoriteis, anti-Islam and anti-homosexual.
- supporting and spreading wild conspirecies, distrust for media and law inforcement.
Maybe you are right, maybe your wrong regarding the above, I really don’t know, but as far as the British media are concerned, I think it has made its own reputation, as you say, not many people trust anything they say anymore. A strange fact of life is that people tend to believe what they read or watch in the media, if it agrees with their own viewpoint. More than once I have seen a person condemn a story because it came from a certain media outlet, and then a short time later I have seen these same people use a story from that same media, as justification for their argument,we are a contradictory lot we humans.


You may well be correct in the above, but i really dont know one way or the other.

QUOTE

some of these policies may make sense to you, as they are suppose to make sense.
- but do you identify with most of them?


Which policies do you refer to, I would welcome the opportunity to give my opinion on them.


QUOTE

there is a reason why so many countries chose to ban these parties.
even though some of their policies \\\"make sense\\\"


That is true, and one of those reasons some countries ban political parties, is simply because that party disagrees with the ruling parties ideas, that is exact what happens in Fascist dictator ruled countries all over the world, these fascists states do not believe in free speech, and neither do they believe in democracy.
ai21
QUOTE(charlesr @ Jun 20 2009, 04:24 PM) *
QUOTE
your choosing to ignore ideology and declarations seems too Naive to be true.

Again I would have to disagree, it appears that you have misunderstood my point, I have actually done exactly the opposite, what I said was, judge a man not on what he says, but on what he does, that makes every parties manifesto or policies totally irrelevant, it only their actions that truly show what they are.

A good example of this is the recent statement made Gordon Brown, he said he will clean up policies and make matters more transparent, his very next action is to publish MP’S expenses heavily edited with most of the relevant subject matter deleted, Browns words mean nothing while his actions show his exact true agenda, this applies to all political parties in my view, so in effect,I have criticized all political parties and supported none.

it's a whole different issue. one thing is the ideology, and a whole other is integrity.
while the New Labour pushed people away with it's promiscuous integrity,
their ideologies and declarations seems reasonable. refreshing the party with fresh faces can revitalize it.
on the other hand, BNP ideology and declaration are big issue. as they are not the ruling party, most of their record is that.

ignoring it means you are VERY Naive.
people sometimes lie, but if they refuse to lie, it may also be bad omen.
it means they actually mean it!
QUOTE(charlesr @ Jun 20 2009, 04:24 PM) *
QUOTE
these policies however,do work:
- blaiming crime and terror on minority groups, ignoring poverty and incitement.
- suggesting immigration block and deportation
- presenting reality as "rampeging crime" with everyone ignoring it, except them.
- favioring popular social and green policies. claiming to be "true friend" to the abandoned workers
- demanding "corrective discrimination" to be applied to the unopressed majority (thus demanding ) discrimination), or ending the policies that try to mend long-standing discrimination.
- noticibly being anti-Jews, anti-minoriteis, anti-Islam and anti-homosexual.
- supporting and spreading wild conspiracies, distrust for media and law enforcement.
...
You may well be correct in the above, but i really dont know one way or the other.
QUOTE
some of these policies may make sense to you, as they are suppose to make sense.
- but do you identify with most of them?
Which policies do you refer to, I would welcome the opportunity to give my opinion on them.
the ones just above.

you may agree with some,
but swallowing it whole - hook and sinker, means either you are EXTREMELY Naive,
or simply very racist.
QUOTE(charlesr @ Jun 20 2009, 04:24 PM) *

QUOTE
there is a reason why so many countries chose to ban these parties.
even though some of their policies "make sense"

That is true, and one of those reasons some countries ban political parties, is simply because that party disagrees with the ruling parties ideas, that is exact what happens in Fascist dictator ruled countries all over the world, these fascists states do not believe in free speech, and neither do they believe in democracy.

can you name me parties that were wrongly banned from elections in western democracies?
it seems you know of some...


I will give you counter-examples:
the US KKK, against civil right for non-weights, and being involved in hate crimes.
the Israeli Kahane Chai. part of it's platform - trying to abolish democracy and establish Jewish theocratic law. being for force deportation of all non-Jews from Israel, planning and supporting terrorist acts, trying to unsettle the Jewish-Arab coexistence.
German Nazi Party and Italian Fascist party. which actually abolished democracy, as part of their platforms.

banning parties is an extreme action, but in VERY extreme cases, it must be done.
I'm not saying that BNP should be banned.
rederic
QUOTE
A good example of this is the recent statement made Gordon Brown, he said he will clean up policies and make matters more transparent, his very next action is to publish MP’S expenses heavily edited with most of the relevant subject matter deleted, Browns words mean nothing while his actions show his exact true agenda, this applies to all political parties in my view, so in effect,I have criticized all political parties and supported none.


The publishing & subsequent editing of MPs expenses was done by a Commons committee, not Gordon Brown.
charlesr
[quote]
it's a whole different issue. one thing is the ideology, and a whole other is integrity.
while the New Labour pushed people away with it's promiscuous integrity,
their ideologies and declarations seems reasonable. [/quote]

Lets be candid here, Labour have no integrity what so ever, they have lied, cheated and even committed fraud while they have been in power. New faces do not necessarily make a difference, its new policies that are required by the British people, hence the collapsed Labour vote. [/quote]

[quote]
on the other hand, BNP ideology and declaration are big issue. as they are not the ruling party, most of their record is that. [/quote]

How can any parties ideology or declarations, be any different in purpose to any other parties?

[quote]
ignoring it means you are VERY Naive.
people sometimes lie, but if they refuse to lie, it may also be bad omen.
it means they actually mean it! [/quote]

I do not accept that I am ignoring anything, I may not be fully versed in the intricacies of BNP policy, but I am certainly not ignoring it, i cannot ignore that which I am not aware of.
If some politicians refuse to lie, then they are honest people, everything they say can be believed, the people of Britain would then have the opportunity to vote for what is on offer, unlike the situation with the three main parties, they offer one thing, then do just the opposite once they get elected. If telling the truth is on offer, I will take that every time and I am pretty sure that the majority of British people would do so also.


[quote]
- blaiming crime and terror on minority groups, ignoring poverty and incitement. [/quote]


At present the only actions classified as terror in Britain according to our Government, at least as far as i am aware, are those by militant Muslim and they are a minority not only of the whole British people, but they are even a minority of the Muslim population, so referring to them as minorities is absolutely correct, why should the truth not be told?

Crime in general is committed by people from all walks of British life, including politicians, so I don’t actually know why anyone would blame just minority groups, if the BNP have done that then they are wrong to have done so. Would you have a link that shows us that?


[quote]

- suggesting immigration block and deportation [/quote]


The Labour party are doing exactly that right now, they are limiting immigration and deporting immigrants on a daily basis and both the Conservatives and the Liberals have said they would do it also. If you condemn limiting immigration, and repatriation then you condemn our three main parties. Are you condemning them for that policy?

There are various reasons for limiting immigration, we being a very small country, have limited space, we also have limited finance, no country can take every immigrant from every country, but generally speaking, the larger the country the more immigrants they can absorb, and Britain is a really small country that already is densely populated, more so than most other countries on earth.

[quote]

- presenting reality as "rampeging crime" with everyone ignoring it, except them [/quote]

In some areas of Britain, that is the case, and this has been pointed out by MP’S of all parties at some point in time.


[quote]
- favioring popular social and green policies. claiming to be "true friend" to the abandoned workers [/quote]


What’s wrong with that ? if its popular then people of Britain obviously want it, and they should get it, that’s called democracy. Are you saying that you would rather we lived in a less democratic country? Are you saying that you don’t think that people should get what they voted for?


[quote]
- demanding "corrective discrimination" to be applied to the unopressed majority (thus demanding ) [/quote]


Thats democracy for you, you are entitled to demand anything you like. Would you prefer to live in a dictatorship where you cannot ask for anything? I do not agree with any form of discrimination, it is inherently divisive in my opinion, it plays one section of the country against another, it is a truly divisive policy, it creates resentment and unrest

And who is to be the judge of whether the majority is oppressed or not? I would say that the majority of people should decide by the ballot box whether they are oppressed or not. Labour, Conservative and Liberal alike, advocate Corrective discrimination, or positive discrimination, to use their own terminology, but not one of them has had the courage to print it plainly and clearly in their manifesto, the British people have never had the opportunity to vote on it. Obviously as an advocate of democracy, I believe that all things should be put before the people to vote for or against, I could never agree with a dictatorial government on any policy that has not been voted for by the people of our country, otherwise we become a dictatorship. That is purely for the fascists as far as I am concerned.

[quote]
discrimination), or ending the policies that try to mend long-standing discrimination.
[/quote]


I abhor discrimination in any form by any party in any country.


[quote]
- noticibly being anti-Jews, anti-minoriteis, anti-Islam and anti-homosexual. [/quote]


If the BNP or any other party is anti - any section of the people, then it is wrong period.


[quote]
- supporting and spreading wild conspiracies, distrust for media and law enforcement. [/quote]



What wild conspiracies do you refer to? Do you have a link that show us these conspiracies? Obviously I could not comment on something I know nothing about.

As for the media, they have created the distrust themselves by their nefarious actions over a long period of time, and any man who believes everything he reads is a fool.

The police to a lesser degree have actually created some negative feeling towards themselves, by using aggressive tactics during crowd control, killing someone who is doing nothing wrong is hardly conduct that would be condoned by any civilized person and likewise, keeping people penned in to a small area without allowing toilet facilities, or access to fresh water for drinking is hardly likely to endear anyone to them.

Only true fascists would condone that kind of treatment, and Britain should not take that route. Do you not agree that, that kind of treatment is unacceptable in civilised democratic country?


[quote]
can you name me parties that were wrongly banned from elections in western democracies?
it seems you know of some...

I will give you counter-examples:
the US KKK, against civil right for non-weights, and being involved in hate crimes.
the Israeli Kahane Chai. part of it's platform - trying to abolish democracy and establish Jewish theocratic law. being for force deportation of all non-Jews from Israel, planning and supporting terrorist acts, trying to unsettle the Jewish-Arab coexistence.
German Nazi Party and Italian Fascist party. which actually abolished democracy, as part of their platforms. [/quote]



Thanks for that information, but I think if we go down that route would be to drift off topic, we are discussing the BNP in Britain and I would prefer to stay with that subject, I have a limit to the time I can spend on line researching and discussing. perhaps i should just clarify my status here, I do not pretend to be an expert in anyway, I readily agree that I am just an amateur in politics, albeit an enthusiastic one.


[quote]
Banning parties is an extreme action, but in VERY extreme cases, it must be done.
I'm not saying that BNP should be banned. [banned]


In my opinion any political party that advocates violence should be banned period, when politics advocate or justify violence, you then have a fascist party, but as to whether any party has actually incited violence, as democracy dictates, must first be proven in a court of law, that is the way of democracy.


ai21
I can't understand anything in this mess.
please don't respond in such messy way.
QUOTE
Lets be candid here, Labour have no integrity what so ever, they have lied, cheated and even committed fraud while they have been in power. New faces do not necessarily make a difference, its new policies that are required by the British people, hence the collapsed Labour vote
so you are Naive.
people forget all this things in less then a full term.
If people want what New Labour want to sell, then replacing the corrupted old faces will be enough.
if they actually want something else - it's a whole different thing.

the ruling party can show competence or incompetence. smaller ones have mostly talk.
of course BNP weren't caught in so many lies. they didn't have the reason to lie yet.
don't compare apples to oranges.
QUOTE
I do not accept that I am ignoring anything,I may not be fully versed in the intricacies of BNP policy
this is it exactly:
you care about them enough to check their suggestions seriously,
yet you CHOOSE not to check what is their ideology, de-facto ignoring it.
QUOTE
Crime in general is committed by people from all walks of British life, including politicians, so I don’t actually know why anyone would blame just minority groups, if the BNP have done that then they are wrong to have done so. Would you have a link that shows us that?
check the stories in BNP website. including the one you posted.
QUOTE
There are various reasons for limiting immigration
agreed, and I'll be the first to agree.
but I said block and deport, not limit. blocking all non-white immigration, deporting all non-whites is very different then limiting immigration and deporting criminals.

QUOTE
I do not agree with any form of discrimination
I agree. but how do you end discrimination?
when I look at Ethiopian immigration, most of the 1st generation can't get a decent jobs (lack of education). but second generation got helped. using "social mobility tools", they don't share the fate of their parents. ignoring the problem, and you have a whole population of people who can do only menial jobs. they happen to be black, too. how do you call it?

QUOTE
Only true fascists would condone that kind of treatment, and Britain should not take that route. Do you not agree that, that kind of treatment is unacceptable in civilised democratic country?
I am appalled by the way UK police treat it's citizens. It must be a cultural thing.


QUOTE
In my opinion any political party that advocates violence should be banned period, when politics advocate or justify violence, you then have a fascist party
we agree then.
can you tell me please, why do the BNP nurture it's connections with KKK?
rederic
QUOTE
limiting immigration and deporting immigrants on a daily basis



You're using the BNPs trick of telling half truths.

The only people being deported are illegal immigrants who have been refused entry.[fact]

The BNP want to deport all immigrants, even third generation citizens because they're black.[fact]

You say you don't know much about the BNP. I would have thought the opening post of this thread & your visit to the BNP website would of given you a fairly good idea of what they stand for.
charlesr
QUOTE

I cannot understand anything in this mess. Me


I have to say that i have felt the same way regarding the way you phrase something’s, but out of courtesy I did not mention it. You can clearly see that my post is set out correctly, I am afraid it must be the way the forum web site is interpreting things, sometimes it comes out ok and sometimes it does not, I don’t get this problem any where else.

QUOTE

so you are Naive.
people forget all this things in less than a full term.


I know you are totally wrong on that point, which is proven by the fact that People have stopped voting Labour, if they forget everything, why did they stop voting for Labour? You are obviously way out of focus with that statement. So why have people stopped voting Labour then?


QUOTE

If people want what New Labour want to sell, then replacing the corrupted old faces will be enough.


Once again that is nonsensical, the labour party has changed faces many times and changed prime minister once, but hundreds of thousands of people stopped voting for them, how come people stopped voting for them? You are patently wrong on that point and the voting pattern prove you so.


QUOTE

the ruling party can show competence or incompetence. smaller ones have mostly talk.
of course BNP weren\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t caught in so many lies. they didn\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t have the reason to lie yet.
don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t compare apples to oranges.


Talking of not understanding things, this above is a good example of what I mentioned earlier, I don’t mean to be offensive, but I cannot relate to that at all.


QUOTE

check the stories in BNP website. including the one you posted.



So you have read all of the BNP website have you? Then you are obviously more of an expert on them than I am, so does that make you a BNP supporter?
ai21
QUOTE(charlesr @ Jun 22 2009, 02:30 AM) *
QUOTE

I cannot understand anything in this mess. Me


I have to say that i have felt the same way regarding the way you phrase something’s, but out of courtesy I did not mention it. You can clearly see that my post is set out correctly, I am afraid it must be the way the forum web site is interpreting things, sometimes it comes out ok and sometimes it does not, I don’t get this problem any where else.

QUOTE

so you are Naive.
people forget all this things in less than a full term.


I know you are totally wrong on that point, which is proven by the fact that People have stopped voting Labour, if they forget everything, why did they stop voting for Labour? You are obviously way out of focus with that statement. So why have people stopped voting Labour then?


QUOTE

If people want what New Labour want to sell, then replacing the corrupted old faces will be enough.


Once again that is nonsensical, the labour party has changed faces many times and changed prime minister once, but hundreds of thousands of people stopped voting for them, how come people stopped voting for them? You are patently wrong on that point and the voting pattern prove you so.
...
QUOTE

check the stories in BNP website. including the one you posted.



So you have read all of the BNP website have you? Then you are obviously more of an expert on them than I am, so does that make you a BNP supporter?

posting without checking is annoying - please have the curtsey to fix the post if it turn out bad.
I apologize for my spelling mistakes. English isn't my native tongue, and I wasn't aware it was that obvious...

people forget about these things in LESS then half a term. currently labour is in seat, so there was 0 time to forget. I didn't hint that that people forget in 0 time.
if they have competent people, they will cool off in opposition for a term or two,
let others make the mistakes and lies.
charlesr
QUOTE

posting without checking is annoying - please have the curtsey to fix the post if it turn out bad.


Like I said, the post was written correctly, it must be the way this website interprets the post that is the problem, there is nothing I can do about it.

QUOTE

I apologize for my spelling mistakes. English isn\\\\\\\'t my native tongue, and I wasn\\\\\\\'t aware it was that obvious...
Although there are spelling mistakes in your post probably in mine also, it was the way you compose a sentence that I was referring to, not the spelling. I have to say that I am impressed if English is not your first language, could I ask what your Nationality is, or would you consider that question a bit too personal?

QUOTE

if they have competent people, they will cool off in opposition for a term or two,
let others make the mistakes and lies.

Yes now I understand what you meant, but hopefully we will get an honest government next time around, although I very much doubt it. The conservatives are already back sliding on their original policies, so things do not good in the immediate future.
rederic
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/ma...facebook-expose

BNP may face membership injunction
23 June 2009 12:58pm. The British National Party is facing the threat of a legal injunction which could lead to fines or even imprisonment over a potential breach of race discrimination law by its membership policies.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) gave the far-right party until July 20 to amend its constitution to ensure it did not discriminate against members on grounds of race.

BNP leader Nick Griffin said: "Our legal counsel says that it is very clear that we are a Section 25/Section 26 exempted organisation because we are here for specific ethnic groups."

EHRC officials said they believed the BNP's constitution and membership criteria may discriminate on the grounds of race and colour, contrary to the Race Relations Act. The party's membership criteria appeared to restrict membership to those within what the BNP regarded as particular "ethnic groups" and those whose skin colour was white, according to the commission.

But Mr Griffin said: "It is nothing to do with 'white'. We are really talking here about the English, the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh, collectively the people who are ethnically British."

Asked if that meant a black Welshman would be welcome in the party, he said: "There is no such thing as a black Welshman. You can have a black Briton; you can't have a black Welshman. Welsh is about people who live in Wales since the end of the last ice age."

He went on: "We would be happy to act for him, I would be happy to have him in Britain but we would not have him in our party because our party is here to act for the indigenous people of these islands who have been turned into second-class citizens by people like (EHRC head) Trevor Philips. Until he stops his discrimination against us, we are very reluctant to change how we organise to act for our people."

Legal director John Wadham said: "The commission's statutory role includes a duty to investigate possible breaches of discrimination law and take action where appropriate.

"The legal advice we have received indicates that the British National Party's constitution and membership criteria, employment practices and provision of services to constituents and the public may breach discrimination laws which all political parties are legally obliged to uphold. We await a response from the BNP to our letter before deciding what further action we may take. Litigation or enforcement action can be avoided by the BNP giving a satisfactory response to our letter."

It is believed that it is the first time the EHRC has threatened such legal action, which could lead to fines or possible imprisonment.
ai21
QUOTE(rederic @ Jun 24 2009, 01:00 AM) *
...
But Mr Griffin said: "It is nothing to do with 'white'. We are really talking here about the English, the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh, collectively the people who are ethnically British."

Asked if that meant a black Welshman would be welcome in the party, he said: "There is no such thing as a black Welshman. You can have a black Briton; you can't have a black Welshman. Welsh is about people who live in Wales since the end of the last ice age."

I'm confused.

is he opposing the white Anglo-Saxon invasion and domination of the UK, at the expanse of indigenous population?
supporting the rights of the Celtic tribes of Wales instead?
does this have any repercussion on the indigenous people of N.Ireland, opposing similar invasion and domination ?
charlesr
QUOTE

is he opposing the white Anglo-Saxon invasion and domination of the UK, at the expanse of indigenous population?


The indigenous British people of the day certainly did, for them it meant rape and murder of their friends and family and confiscation of their land and property.




QUOTE

The by-election caused by the resignation of disgraced Labour back-bencher Ian Gibson will be contested by Reverend Robert West for the British National Party, it has been confirmed.
Speaking to BNP News, Reverend West said he was delighted to take up the party’s banner once again after having been its lead candidate in the East Midlands Euro region, where he amassed an impressive 106,319 votes.
* Reverend West was guest of honour at this month’s Bracknell and Wokingham BNP group meeting, reports councillor Mark Burke, our South East correspondent.
“The reverend lost no time in developing his traditional themes of society and its present ills and what the party can and will do about it when in power,” Cllr Burke said.


http://bnp.org.uk/2009/06/bnp%E2%80%99s-re...th-by-election/

Is this a case of, Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth? does this tell us that the BNP are becoming an acceptable alternative to the discredited big three? You have to stop and wonder, just what the three leading parties have done to drive even Gods representative here on earth to joint the BNP ? This must be a defining moment for British politics, scary to some but very welcome to others apparently.


i am fire,fire,fire,fire
From the mind of a teen:

Whilst i see that people are angry at the current state of the , i also see thaat we aare getting (as whites) pushed out. Its undeniable. Anyone heard of "positive discrimination"? Has it not been reported that 60% of racist crime is anti-White (i got that statistic ages ago from the Beeb). But why aren't things done? Because it would be labelled racist for any action to occur to stop racism. That is my view. sad.gif


Curiously did you see how violent the Anti-Fasists were? Almost like facists....
rederic
QUOTE
Anyone heard of "positive discrimination"?


Yes i've heard of it. Racists bleat about it constantly. Can you give me some factual examples of "positive discrimination". It should be easy as it's supposed to be happening all the time & is affecting "indigenous" people every day.
JonoF
QUOTE(rederic @ Jul 6 2009, 10:03 PM) *

QUOTE
Anyone heard of "positive discrimination"?


Yes i've heard of it. Racists bleat about it constantly. Can you give me some factual examples of "positive discrimination". It should be easy as it's supposed to be happening all the time & is affecting "indigenous" people every day.


"Kenyans/Africans make brilliant endurance related athletes."

"Jamaicans make fantastic sprinters."

Instantly came to mind when i saw your question rederic. I'd stay to post more but i'm currently involved with an awesome discussion on another forum about Religion vs Science, that for a change hasn't resorted to one side insulting the other.
charlesr
QUOTE

From the mind of a teen:

Whilst i see that people are angry at the current state of the , i also see thaat we aare getting (as whites) pushed out. Its undeniable. Anyone heard of \\\"positive discrimination\\\"? Has it not been reported that 60% of racist crime is anti-White (i got that statistic ages ago from the Beeb). But why aren\\\'t things done? Because it would be labelled racist for any action to occur to stop racism. That is my view. sad.gif


Curiously did you see how violent the Anti-Fasists were? Almost like facists....


Hi there FFF, could i ask how old you are, if you dont consider that question too personal of course , i have the feeling that you are only just in your teens hence you are still proud about becoming a teenager. Am i right on that?

Would you have a link to the BBC story that you could pass on?

I would agree that the antifascists are more like fascists than those they accuse of being so, if the reports i have read are true that is, and there lay another problem, deciding which report we accept as being factual.

IT appears to me that whether you believe in Positive discrimination or not, comes down to which side of the line you find your self, obviously those who gain from it will support it and those that loose by it will condemn it.

aboutblank1976
QUOTE
Hi there FFF, could i ask how old you are, if you dont consider that question too personal of course , i have the feeling that you are only just in your teens hence you are still proud about becoming a teenager. Am i right on that?


MOD Hot Tip:-
If you click on a members profile it will tell you how old they are (if they have completed the birthday section).

Tomorrow's Hot Tip - Cooking with a lighter!
charlesr
QUOTE(aboutblank1976 @ Jul 7 2009, 11:05 AM) *

QUOTE
Hi there FFF, could i ask how old you are, if you dont consider that question too personal of course , i have the feeling that you are only just in your teens hence you are still proud about becoming a teenager. Am i right on that?


MOD Hot Tip:-
If you click on a members profile it will tell you how old they are (if they have completed the birthday section).

Tomorrow's Hot Tip - Cooking with a lighter!



Now why did I not think of that. biggrin.gif
rederic
QUOTE
IT appears to me that whether you believe in Positive discrimination or not, comes down to which side of the line you find your self, obviously those who gain from it will support it and those that loose by it will condemn it.


And there's the problem. The BNP say a thing which they believe will be popular & gullible people just believe it, even when there's no evidence to support it. Just one more myth amongst the many that sheep-like people swallow without even trying to find out if it's true or not.

Question for Fire: Do you personally know anyone who has lost their job to an immigrant?
i am fire,fire,fire,fire
Example: My auntie told me how at the thing she works (council services), the board had a Black man recently promoted to the board. Everyone knew he was there because he was black, not because of how he works.

There you go Red

Anyone ehard of this gene us europeans have? Something 'bout intelligence, 'nother beeb documentary (on people).
rederic
QUOTE(i am fire,fire,fire,fire @ Jul 7 2009, 07:59 PM) *

Example: My auntie told me how at the thing she works (council services), the board had a Black man recently promoted to the board. Everyone knew he was there because he was black, not because of how he works.

There you go Red

Anyone ehard of this gene us europeans have? Something 'bout intelligence, 'nother beeb documentary (on people).


So, you don't actually know, personally, anyone at all who has lost their job to an immigrant. All you know is that your Auntie heard that a black person where she works was promoted over a better qualified white. How do you know that this is true? Answer: Because someone told you so.
Question: Do you believe everything you're told? Do you ever question why you're being told something? Do you believe that the BNP just might possibly have an ulterior motive for saying these things? Are you going to be one of the flock forever?
charlesr
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...ticle741092.ece
QUOTE

A POLICE force that broke sex and race discrimination laws with its recruitment policy has paid an undisclosed sum to a disappointed job applicant who was rejected solely because he was a white man.
Avon and Somerset police discarded nearly 200 applications from young white men after a recruitment drive last year to give greater opportunity to women and ethnic minority candidates. It claimed that white males were “over- represented” on the force.
Colin Port, the Chief Constable, admitted last week that it had been unlawful for the force to select applicants solely on the grounds of race and sex.


Its fair to say that the Independent has as much credibility as any British newspaper and more than most, so this times article carries at least some credibility, it clearly shows that positive discrimination is alive and well in Britain, it is however impossible to ascertain just how endemic this problem is Nationally with out having seen government figures.

Given the fact that the police force mentioned have admitted their guilt and paid compensation to one of the affected job applicants, leaves only one question regarding positive discrimination and that question is, Is it acceptable?
rederic
QUOTE
Anyone ehard of this gene us europeans have? Something 'bout intelligence, 'nother beeb documentary (on people).


This "gene" you talk about. Does it mean that all Europeans have it? Because I know some pretty stupid Europeans. And does it also mean that Africans don't have it? Because I know some pretty clever Africans.

"All generalisations are general statements or opinions which are only partly true because they are based on a few cases or incomplete knowledge".

aboutblank1976
QUOTE(charlesr @ Jul 7 2009, 10:04 PM) *

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...ticle741092.ece
QUOTE

A POLICE force that broke sex and race discrimination laws with its recruitment policy has paid an undisclosed sum to a disappointed job applicant who was rejected solely because he was a white man.
Avon and Somerset police discarded nearly 200 applications from young white men after a recruitment drive last year to give greater opportunity to women and ethnic minority candidates. It claimed that white males were “over- represented” on the force.
Colin Port, the Chief Constable, admitted last week that it had been unlawful for the force to select applicants solely on the grounds of race and sex.


Its fair to say that the Independent has as much credibility as any British newspaper and more than most, so this times article carries at least some credibility, it clearly shows that positive discrimination is alive and well in Britain, it is however impossible to ascertain just how endemic this problem is Nationally with out having seen government figures.

Given the fact that the police force mentioned have admitted their guilt and paid compensation to one of the affected job applicants, leaves only one question regarding positive discrimination and that question is, Is it acceptable?


No it isn't - not one bit. Any employer should select applicants for vacancies based on the applicants ability to do the job. Any employer who is (forceably?) choosing applicants on the basis of their skin colour ,religious beliefs, sexual orientation or gender as the functional prerequisite before any skills/knowledge base or experience of the role is jeopardising the effectiveness of their business. It could just be that the best qualified people get jobs because they are simply better applicants. Perhaps the BNP mentality overlooks this simple fact. The notion that if you are black and get a job that 5 white people applied for is unjust in some way merely highlights a complete lack of insight. Maybe if the bleaters who failed to get such jobs should take a look at themselves and address their own inadequacies for future job applications.

Incidentally FFF, I agree with Rederic that's a poor example you gave. I work for a large NHS Trust, out of 15 positions on the Corporate Board only 3 are occupied by ethnic minorities, based on your relatives argument FFF those 3 are potentially not able to do their jobs and are only in post to please the fairness and equality crew? On the board at your relative's place of work can she vouch for the effective working capability of the other white members?

That having been said I fundamentally disagree with the replacement of British workers with foreign labour purely because of cost issues in terms of reduced wages etc. That is not selection of the best nor is it ethical. Likewise, however the BNP aren't the solution to this problem.
ai21
let's see what "positive discrimination" is:
positive discrimination is a social tool for social mobility, no more, and no less.
as such, it is designed to prevent racial inequalities, that inherently come prom a notion that a certain group is inept.

for example:
Ethiopian immigrants came with no education. therefore, few went to the university, very few got good jobs, and NONE got leading position in the society (no positive rolemodel).
as a result, many Ethiopian kids believed that that either there is hidden discrimination, or Ethiopians are just "naturally inept". both are notions very dangerous, as those thinking like this turn to crime, alcohol and drugs and domestic abuse.
indeed there was sharp rise in these among Ethiopians.

to prevent this, "positive discrimination" was used:
- Ethiopians that got grades that almost got them in, got in anyway
- Ethiopians that got into the university, couldn't get financial and academic help from his parents, so they got more scholarships, and more free private tutoring.
- in the army, commanders were asked to encourage more Ethiopian soldiers to become officers.
- university grants based on community contribution were established, to give privet tutoring to school kids, and also build their self esteem (as they meet educated people that know they can achieve anything they want)
- in the public, people became sympathetic to the "glass ceiling" that they must pass(and that much more effort and ability was needed to get similar achievements), so if there is an adequate Ethiopian applicant, he may get a position rather then slightly better applicants.
- as a result, more and more Ethiopians get into role-model positions, and less Ethiopians turn to crime, drugs, alcohol or domestic abuse.


this is "positive discrimination".
if somebody get people into a job, based on race and not ability, this is not "positive discrimination".

if someone inept get a position he can't perform, just because he's a minority,
it's strengthening the notion that this minority is inept, contributing to discrimination.
it's just plain stupidity, and not "positive discrimination".
aboutblank1976
QUOTE
Ethiopian immigrants came with no education. therefore, few went to the university, very few got good jobs, and NONE got leading position in the society (no positive rolemodel).
as a result, many Ethiopian kids believed that that either there is hidden discrimination, or Ethiopians are just "naturally inept". both are notions very dangerous, as those thinking like this turn to crime, alcohol and drugs and domestic abuse.
indeed there was sharp rise in these among Ethiopians.

to prevent this, "positive discrimination" was used:
- Ethiopians that got grades that almost got them in, got in anyway
- Ethiopians that got into the university, couldn't get financial and academic help from his parents, so they got more scholarships, and more free private tutoring.
- in the army, commanders were asked to encourage more Ethiopian soldiers to become officers.
- university grants based on community contribution were established, to give privet tutoring to school kids, and also build their self esteem (as they meet educated people that know they can achieve anything they want)
- in the public, people became sympathetic to the "glass ceiling" that they must pass(and that much more effort and ability was needed to get similar achievements), so if there is an adequate Ethiopian applicant, he may get a position rather then slightly better applicants.
- as a result, more and more Ethiopians get into role-model positions, and less Ethiopians turn to crime, drugs, alcohol or domestic abuse.


Parts of this fall into the category of plain stupidity (the actual events not your post AI21).

QUOTE
Ethiopians that got grades that almost got them in, got in anyway


Erm isn't that allowing them through when they haven't achieved the standard set? Surely encouraging them - through the private tutoring scheme - would result in better grades and then the reward for passing would be the same for all. It puts in place a two tier system of grades it's certainly something the likes of the BNP would feed on in this country, it might be discriminatory but it is also downright unfair and does nothing to solve the problem of them not being good enough to get into university. They failed to reach the bar so the bar gets lowered - if your an Ethiopan immigrant. Pointless, fuel to the fascist fires.

QUOTE
- in the public, people became sympathetic to the "glass ceiling" that they must pass(and that much more effort and ability was needed to get similar achievements), so if there is an adequate Ethiopian applicant, he may get a position rather then slightly better applicants.


Exactly the same here - who takes on "adequate" applicants if better applicants are available? The term "positive discrimination" in this case simply hides very negative discrimination against non-Ethiopian immigrant workers. How does solving the social and economic strife of one group make any long term difference to them or the society as a whole if the root of the problem is papered over and done so at the expense of other students or workers?

It's under these circumstances that groups like the BNP are formed. When liberal democracy fails the alternatives that point out such inequalities and amplify them out of all proportion come to the fore.
ai21
I'm not at all sure if the case is as you describe.

when it come to universities, there is an appeal process.
in it, if you ALMOST got in, but didn't, and you have justified reason, you may appeal before a board, and your case be examined according to your special circumstances, instead of the standard one.
coming from broken home, doing much social or extra-curricular activity, coming from very low income family, are examples for such cases.
so in fact there was two tier system, long before Ethiopian immigrants ever came.

the case of most Ethiopian immigrants, there is clearly such spacial case. so instead of forcing many to pass through the appeal process, the procedure was shortened for those obviously compatible for it.


when a standard student get failed in a class, his parent either get him a private tutor, or tutor him themselves.
but in the case of very low-income families, there is never money for that,
and when the parents never got proper education, the parents can't tutor their kids themselves.

as a result, Ethiopian kids must inherently study much harder to get the same results.
knowing this, free private tutoring programs put focus on Ethiopian immigrants, and give them equal chance.
similarly, you may complain that kids of chronically unemployed get special treatment.


when talking about "adequate" applicant, what are we talking about?
having the needed numbers (years of experience, grades, ext) to do the Job.
do the numbers reflect all? do employers choose based on BEST grades?

not at all. after passing the bar, the employer try to find who will be best for the job.
the one who got the BEST grades may not be the best worker, just the better student.
but one who faced much hardship, and overcame it, you know will try harder, and overcome more problems.
therefore, you always choose an "adequate" applicant, and almost never the "BEST" graded one.


BNP supporters often talk about a quota rules. forcing a certain percentage of minority or woman for new employees.
as I said, this is a very bad shortcut, these rules cause "inadequate" people to get chosen for a job.
you can't focus the assistance in the workplace gates. this will get inadequate employees, and increase the feeling that a minority is inept.
assistance shoud be widespread , focused on getting people of weak minorities to become adequate candidates.
does such rulesreally exist?


unlike some people claim, the UK never was immigration country. each immigration wave was involved with war and massacre, never in peaceful assimilation. it sound as if the public systems never made the changes needed to assimilate immigration, taking shortcuts instead. which create distinct minority groups.

and when you have distinct groups, racism start to rise.
charlesr
QUOTE

No it isn't - not one bit. Any employer should select applicants for vacancies based on the applicants ability to do the job. Any employer who is (forceably?) choosing applicants on the basis of their skin colour ,religious beliefs, sexual orientation or gender as the functional prerequisite before any skills/knowledge base or experience of the role is jeopardising the effectiveness of their business. It could just be that the best qualified people get jobs because they are simply better applicants. Perhaps the BNP mentality overlooks this simple fact. The notion that if you are black and get a job that 5 white people applied for is unjust in some way merely highlights a complete lack of insight.


Absolutely correct, I could not agree more, its just a shame that the majority of people dont have the same clarity of judgement.

QUOTE

Maybe if the bleaters who failed to get such jobs should take a look at themselves and address their own inadequacies for future job applications.

But what if those bleaters happen to be Black or are immigrants? Does the same apply to them?
Is this government not resorting to positive discrimination simply because certain sections of the community are bleating?

QUOTE

That having been said I fundamentally disagree with the replacement of British workers with foreign labour purely because of cost issues in terms of reduced wages etc.


The biggest danger when dealing with any subject is generalizing, to be precise, each case should be judged on its merits, In certain instances the use of foreign labour is to the advantage of the British company that employs them. And in fact as with the steel industry of some years ago, where a steel production line was being installed, the Swedish company that had designed and fabricated the mill, would only guarantee the correct operation of that mill, if its own Swedish workers installed it themselves. In this instance and many others like it, the British company had no option but agree to that demand, if they wanted the latest and most efficient mill in the world at that time.
I think it has been proven beyond doubt that the BNP are not the answer, they are far too divisive a party to be able to represent the country, or indeed any section of it.
If what I have read is true and I do say (if) they have stated that if they are elected to any position, they will only represent white British people, then obviously they would not be suitable at all, in fact if that were the case, they would not even have the right to refer to themselves as a political party in my opinion.

The real problem I think is, the mass immigration of unskilled and uneducated people from areas of the world that are not developed to the degree that Britain and Europe are, and arrive here and pursue their lives in the way that was acceptable in their own country but not acceptable here. Its the same old story, you can take the boy out of the bush, but you cant take the bush out of the boy and thats where the friction begins

charlesr
http://bnp.org.uk/

QUOTE

Islam Is a Cancer Eating Away at Our Freedoms, Says Nick Griffin.

“Western values, freedom of speech, democracy and rights for women are incompatible with Islam, which is a cancer eating away at our freedoms and our democracy and rights for our women and something needs to be done about it,” said British National Party leader, and Member of the European Parliament, Nick Griffin.


Griffin has just committed political suicide i do believe, how can he expect anyone to take him seriously after this? How could any sane man think that making a statement like this is acceptable to any decent person.

I do believe that the Muslim Religion and general way of life, does most certainly cause problems for a certain section of the British community and i think Griffin is voicing the concerns of those people, but to make a public statement of this magnitude, just shows that the BNP, or at least the BNP under Griffins control, can never be taken seriously as political party. I think this is the beginning of the end of the BNP, which in a way is a sad thing, because no matter how extreme their political beliefs are, they are still valid, and always should be, because the fact that a party with such extreme views is allowed, proves that our country is truly and genuinely a democracy.

aboutblank1976
QUOTE(charlesr @ Jul 12 2009, 12:30 AM) *

http://bnp.org.uk/

QUOTE

Islam Is a Cancer Eating Away at Our Freedoms, Says Nick Griffin.

“Western values, freedom of speech, democracy and rights for women are incompatible with Islam, which is a cancer eating away at our freedoms and our democracy and rights for our women and something needs to be done about it,” said British National Party leader, and Member of the European Parliament, Nick Griffin.


Griffin has just committed political suicide i do believe, how can he expect anyone to take him seriously after this? How could any sane man think that making a statement like this is acceptable to any decent person.

I do believe that the Muslim Religion and general way of life, does most certainly cause problems for a certain section of the British community and i think Griffin is voicing the concerns of those people, but to make a public statement of this magnitude, just shows that the BNP, or at least the BNP under Griffins control, can never be taken seriously as political party. I think this is the beginning of the end of the BNP, which in a way is a sad thing, because no matter how extreme their political beliefs are, they are still valid, and always should be, because the fact that a party with such extreme views is allowed, proves that our country is truly and genuinely a democracy.


I take on board the validity of the need for an extreme view to be audible in our society but I question as to whether the BNP are capable of participating in such a role. I want to see the very real and current problems associated with immigration challenged by a real political party that is fed on more than just what amounts to little more than fanaticism. We can debate the good and bad points of immigration to good effect here I am sure (we have a knowledgeable enough member base) however it is not as simple as that in this country as we have (as you say Charles) an ineffective and inefficient system of immigration.

The BNP (more so their leader) in coming out with statements like the above actually sidetrack us from the problem at hand. Instead of recognising that beneath all the bluster and pomp of Griffin and the BNP there are some actual serious problems associated with our current system of immigration, there is a barrage of condemnation and criticism of the BNP from the other political parties. The BNP have become part of the problem whilst they profess to be part of the solution. Griffin goes on using every chance he gets to have a microphone under his nose as another opportunity to rant off in Nuremburgesque prose not realising if he dumped the thinly cloaked racism and the tunnel vision arguments that his party actually has captured the minds of a cross section of Joe Public.

Now we have to hope that either a serious overhaul of the BNP occurs whereby there are significant steps taken to distance themselves from the far-right under current of their agenda or they fall into insignificance once the country comes out of recession and the fickle voters fall out of love with them again.
charlesr
QUOTE

I take on board the validity of the need for an extreme view to be audible in our society but I question as to whether the BNP are capable of participating in such a role. I want to see the very real and current problems associated with immigration challenged by a real political party that is fed on more than just what amounts to little more than fanaticism


I could not agree more, although I have to admit, I was originally of the opinion that the BNP under Griffins charge was no bad thing for democracy, but it would appear that Griffins European success has revealed his true political stance, and we are now possibly back in the position of having no legitimate spokesman regarding the detriments of un regulated immigration and positive discrimination.
So the crux of the matter is once again that Democracy as we have it in Britain has failed the decent people of Britain, we are caught between two political extremes, Labour and Conservatives on the one hand and the BNP on the other, there is no political middle ground.
One thing is certain though and that is, that the Labour party with their policies, are responsible for the rise of the BNP, the only question left in my mind is, is it a deliberate attempt to divide and rule?
I have to agree that, the BNP as it is today under Griffins stewardship, can never be part of the solution, only if they reject Griffin and what now appears to be his true political agenda, can they perhaps become a legitimate part of the solution.
charlesr
I have just found this article in the New York Times on line, here is a a rather interesting, although maybe controversial point of view from the American president himself.

Now as things stand at the moment in Britain, if a member of the British public were to publicly make this same statement as Obama, they would be open to not only insulting accusations of being a racist, but also to prosecution under the Race and religious hatred laws.
I have simply lost count of how many times I have seen people on forums verbally attacked as racists for making the exact statement that Obama has just made. The fact that they might be telling the truth is irrelevant to people of a bigoted nature or an uneducated mind, the people of Britain are walking on eggshells, they are afraid to speak out regarding immigration, for fear of being classed and prosecuted as racists, this is another friction point between the British public and immigrants. It so obviously antagonistic, you once again have to wonder if this Labour policy is not deliberately created to divide the people of Britain.
Obama has thankfully set the standard here, he has actually made lack of progression in employment, in regard to skin colour and ethnicity a legitimate point of discussion. The people of Britain and America should now thankfully be able to accurately express their views regarding colour and ethnicity regarding unemployment without the stigma of being called a racist and the fear of being prosecuted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/17/us/polit...tml?_r=1&em

QUOTE

Stop using racism to excuse failure, Obama tells black America.
Thursday night, warning black parents that they must accept their own responsibilities by “putting away the Xbox and putting our kids to bed at a reasonable hour,” and telling black children that growing up poor is no reason to get bad grades.
“No one has written your destiny for you,” he said, directing his remarks to “all the other Barack Obamas out there” who might one day grow up to be president. “Your destiny is in your hands, and don’t you forget that. That’s what we have to teach all of our children! No excuses! No excuses!”
Mr. Obama spoke for 45 minutes to an audience of several thousand people, most of them black, clad in tuxedos and ball gowns, who had gathered in a ballroom of the Hilton New York to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the nation’s largest civil rights organization.


ai21
QUOTE(charlesr @ Jul 18 2009, 10:59 PM) *
I have just found this article in the New York Times on line, here is a a rather interesting, although maybe controversial point of view from the American president himself.

Now as things stand at the moment in Britain, if a member of the British public were to publicly make this same statement as Obama, they would be open to not only insulting accusations of being a racist, but also to prosecution under the Race and religious hatred laws.
I have simply lost count of how many times I have seen people on forums verbally attacked as racists for making the exact statement that Obama has just made. The fact that they might be telling the truth is irrelevant to people of a bigoted nature or an uneducated mind, the people of Britain are walking on eggshells, they are afraid to speak out regarding immigration, for fear of being classed and prosecuted as racists, this is another friction point between the British public and immigrants. It so obviously antagonistic, you once again have to wonder if this Labour policy is not deliberately created to divide the people of Britain.
Obama has thankfully set the standard here, he has actually made lack of progression in employment, in regard to skin colour and ethnicity a legitimate point of discussion. The people of Britain and America should now thankfully be able to accurately express their views regarding colour and ethnicity regarding unemployment without the stigma of being called a racist and the fear of being prosecuted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/17/us/polit...tml?_r=1&em

I didn't see anything racist in this speech, on the contrary:
QUOTE
“Make no mistake, no mistake: the pain of discrimination is still felt in America,” Mr. Obama said, by African-American women who are paid less for the same work as white men, by Latinos “made to feel unwelcome,” by Muslim Americans “viewed with suspicion” and by “our gay brothers and sisters, still taunted, still attacked, still denied their rights.”

Obama simply divided responsibilities.
it's the minority responsibility to get the best they can out of life,
and the state and majority responsibility to assist coexistence and prevent discrimination.

it is very expected speech, done superbly.
after all, Obam IS THE ROLEMODEL for young people of minorities in the US.


as it come to immigration, and walking on eggshells.
speaking your heart don't make you racist, the way you treat people do.
the US is an immigration state, has been from it's beginning.
in whole of Europe, not Just the UK, we see that the attempts to become immigration friendly have failed significantly. it is not a UK problem, but rather refusal to learn from other's experience because of ideological blindness. it is time to throw this failed dogma, and face reality.


how do you view UKIP?
this party do support to handle things differently (immigration and EU wise for example),
but don't involve racism in their campaign. you don't have to be white-only party to be effective opposition.
unlike BNP, when I look at their policies, they don't seem like a fantasy. they actually mean to implement their policies.
and you don't catch them praising Hitler
charlesr
QUOTE

I didn\\\'t see anything racist in this speech, on the contrary:

Neither do I, but the politically correct brigade would be up in arms over this, if it been said by a British person, of course since it was Obama that said it, it will ok.

QUOTE
how do you view UKIP?


I know just about as much about UKIP as I do about the BNP, In discussions I am reverting to the internet to acquire the information I require. I knew very little regarding the BNP at the start of this discussion, so first of all I went straight to the BNP web site to get a better idea of things, I then cast around the interment to get a wider view of them. I will do the same with UKIP before I try to answer your question.

If UKIP are as you indicate then they are a better proposition than the BNP by far, but I don’t know whether they support repatriation or deportation or not and given that Britain has allowed many thousands of criminals entry in to the country, I would like to hear that UKIP would deport all illegal immigrants immediately, and also all legal immigrants who have committed crimes while they have been here. But I will check the UKIP web page and get back to you on that.
rederic
QUOTE(charlesr @ Jul 19 2009, 01:20 PM) *

QUOTE

I didn\\\'t see anything racist in this speech, on the contrary:

Neither do I, but the politically correct brigade would be up in arms over this, if it been said by a British person, of course since it was Obama that said it, it will ok.

QUOTE
how do you view UKIP?


I know just about as much about UKIP as I do about the BNP, In discussions I am reverting to the internet to acquire the information I require. I knew very little regarding the BNP at the start of this discussion, so first of all I went straight to the BNP web site to get a better idea of things, I then cast around the interment to get a wider view of them. I will do the same with UKIP before I try to answer your question.

If UKIP are as you indicate then they are a better proposition than the BNP by far, but I don’t know whether they support repatriation or deportation or not and given that Britain has allowed many thousands of criminals entry in to the country, I would like to hear that UKIP would deport all illegal immigrants immediately, and also all legal immigrants who have committed crimes while they have been here. But I will check the UKIP web page and get back to you on that.



I find your self confessed ignorance of UKIP astounding, especially as you voted for them.

charlesr wrote:
QUOTE
I will continue to vote UKIP for the foreseeable future, and hope they continue their success, i am now starting to believe that UKIP might be the turning point and are our best hope of getting out of Europe.
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